Clinton is no better than a political hack. He even spoke against his own policies. Come on--- you either believe in work for welfare or you don't. You either believe in lowering taxes or you don't. Eastwood on the other hand was subtle, tongue in cheek funny while teaching us to think. It made us question our leadership without being mean or vicious.

Forget the last president to leave a budget surplus? Overshadowing Clinton's affair and his coverup attempt I think, would be Bush's illegal war with Iraq killing thousands, and his irresponsible spending. As well, it is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). It's too bad really that almost half of the marriages in the US end in divorce. http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/why-lovers-lie.html

Linda, your comment reminds me of something my mom used to say to me. "if everybody was going to jump off a bridge, would you?" If you eliminate the serial divorcers from the equation, the number isn't close to 50%. Regardless, just because many people do something doesn't mean it is right.

Bush's spending was completely irresponsible. No question. I assume you also have a problem with Obama's spending. Iraq and Afganistan were invaded under the Bush regime. More soldiers have died in Afganistan under Obama than under Bush in under three years. Was the bombing of Lybia legal? How about the increased use of drone strikes? Do you approve of the "kill list?"

Clinton did have a surplus. Do you recognize the efforts of the Republican controlled congress as part of achieving that surplus? Do you know that Obama's proposed budget was voted down in both houses by both Republicans and Democrats? Yes, I am aware that it is Congress's job to write and pass the budget, but when the presbud receives no votes, not one, that says something.

MZ, I mean no disrespect to anyone for sure. I don't believe Clinton was right with his choice to stray and cover it up. I just think that what he did paled compared to what Bush did. Why don't you think so? Would Obama be in Afghanistan if Bush hadn't put us there already? What did the military leaders say about getting out? You can't blame Obama for Afghanistan.
Well, who were the jerks that took the stimulus money and gave it to the CEOs? Not Obama!
Perhaps you could check this site out, but I already realize that if it doesn't agree with what you believe, you will say it is liberal media and therefore incorrect. You would be mistaken if you think I am a democrat or even a liberal. You don't know who or what I am. http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/default.aspx
Also, I think it rather hilarious who gets blamed for the destruction of the American "family" (gays) given the statistics on divorce rates! Welfare to work? Just put your head in the sand. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-weinstein/obama-welfare-to-work_b_1772739.html

Soldiermom11, how is it your son will not have time to vote?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/31/ohio-obama-early-voting-lawsuit_n_1821882.html

Linda, you certainly assume much don't you? At what point did I say I agreed with what Bush did? At what point did I compare going to war with infidelity? I didn't, you did. At what point did I say I was ok with either? At what point does Afganistan become Obama's responsibility? Never? Even if he wouldn't have gone in, he is the commander in chief now. How long does his free pass last.

I have had the opportunity in life to lead many people, to take over and clean up other people messes and bad decisions. You can do the job, make the tough calls and make things better, or you can make things worse and blame the guy who was there before you.

As far as your CEO comment, Obama has given billions to CEOs. You can pretend that he hasn't, but he has.

Where did the gay comment come from besides left field (another baseball reference, kind of like bush league, you can look that up as well)? I wasn't aware anybody said anything about gays.

You give two sites to look at, one run by the administration and the huffington post. I don't need to say they are liberal, the sites speak for themselves.

I never said I knew you. I clearly stated my assumptions based on what you wrote. Where was I wrong?

That's what I meant by the word "subtle". Delicately complex and understated. Guess we should have to explain things to you in bold and simple terms after the show.

You lost focus; the article is about two speeches at the conventions.

It's not Obama that has led the world to riots and death. It's the effed up Americans who use the 1st ammendment as an excuse to ridicule & defile a holy book or "god" that's different than the one they worship. There's free speech, and there's inciting hatred speech, with the latter being what too many effed up Americans choose.
It's well past the time that the 1st ammendment gets a make over, with inciting hatred speech & actions, becoming a punishable act.

Any American suporting these vile people ("because it's their right to say and do what they want, free speech, 1st ammendment, blah blah blah") bullcrap, are as guilty as they are for causing the death of innocent Americans.

2:20 pm on Friday, September 14, 2012

Jay,
"It's the effed up Americans who use the 1st ammendment as an excuse to ridicule & defile a holy book or "god" that's different than the one they worship."
Yes it is. I'm Catholic. Have Catholics stormed an Embassy and MURDERED an ambassador of the United States in response to criticism of the Church in your living memory?

Jay, where you as upset with a dung covered virgin Mary or with Jesus floating in a jar of urine that was so called art and was partially funded by tax payers? I didn't see any Christians rioting when that happened.

One guy makes a movie and you appear to be excusing the response by crazies and blaming the film maker.

What if someone thinks what you just wrote is hateful? Would you be ok with your speech being curtailed? Who gets to decide what is ok to say and what is not?

Would anyone be allowed to point out that Muslims feel it ok to force women into burkas, to make them second class citizens, to promote women as property of their men, to promote beating them into submissive behavior, to stone them for adultery? Is this hate speech? Not all Muslims of coarse, but many imams promote just such behavior.

V. Scheurich, you are clearly unaware that riots and death in the Middle East precede the Obama administration by, oh, a couple decades. Mostly since our policies tend to minimize the sovereignty of governments of Islamic peoples and their freedom of religion.

And, MZ, you have absolutely no clue about the work of Chris Ofili and Andreas Serrano, so please shut up. Just because art is critical of the structures of power (religion and government) does not make it unworthy of public funding. And, to be specific, while these two artists received NEA grants, neither was used directly in the creation of the two works mentioned.

Second, this:
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/09/14/851401/values-voters-women/
and this:
http://www.dennyburk.com/pat-robertson-advises-wife-beating/

There are many conservatives who think Burkas would be just fine, thank you very much, and hey, beating your wife is fine, if you adhere to the correct dogma. With neanderthals like John Kasich in office, who believe their wives are home doing the laundry while they are out campaigning, I don't think anyone should pretend that republicans are behind women's rights.

And lastly, Jay, as Voltaire famously said, "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." Curtailing freedom of speech is as antithetical to our democracy as curtailing our right to vote.

Jim, I won't shut up, but thanks for saying please. You fell for the oldest trick, no I didn't use that money from over there, I used this money from over here. It is like the food stamp recipient on drugs, technically the food stamps did not pay for the drugs, but it did allow money that would have been used on the food to be used on the drugs.

Also, you may have noticed I was commenting to Jay who seems to think that it is ok to riot, kill, and burn things based on a movie (art). It would seem that you helped prove my point and support my argument.

Jim, what is with liberals comparing conservatives to Muslims? Would you rather have your mother/wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/daughter walk through the most conservative towns in America, or through Egypt? Where do you think you loved ones (no matter their beliefs) would be taken in and cared for more, small own USA, or Iran?

I am conservative and can't even comprehend the so called "war on women." Did I miss something? Is it a war on women to not want to pay for someone else's contraception (male or female). Is it possible at some women find fulfillment in being stay at home moms? Is it possible that they do this of their own free will? Is it possible that raising kids is their calling? Is it sexist of me to take out the garbage, fix things around the house, mow the lawn, etc... Is it sexist if my wife cooks the majority of our meals and does the majority of the laundry? Is it bad that she doesn't have to work and can stay home with our wonderful children? Is she being a poor role model, am I?

MZ. You appear to misunderstand how NEA grants work, and I would argue you still do not wish to even attempt to understand these two artists works, which is fine, but you are being critical without looking at the big picture, and that's too bad. Read about them, and try to get a feel for what they were trying to say about their view of the world before making judgements. It has nothing to do with money, and even less to do with your opinion of welfare recipients. Also, Jay said nothing of the sort, but good try at word twisting.

As to your second response, my family is made of strong, capable, independent minded humans with a broad view of the world and a discernible lack of the kind of stereotyping you seem to favor. I would feel comfortable with them walking anywhere they damn well please, since they can take care of themselves. You should be ashamed for assuming all (fill in the culture) act and think the way you project them to. Also, stereotyping all "liberals" as one way or another misses my point, which is that SOME conservatives act an awful lot like the Taliban. I did not compare them to Muslims, which would be an insult to Muslims, who are, contrary to your belief, mostly peaceful, law abiding, family loving, people, who live, love, pray, work, laugh, cry and sing just like you and me. Get over your prejudice.

Answers: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, no, no, no and I can't really say, as we haven't met. Maybe.

Jim, you seem to still misunderstand the original point. Christians didn't riot when your favorite artist made inflammatory art. Say what you will about the artist or the "message" but the fact is nobody died. I wonder what would happen if that same artist went ahead and covered Muhammed (pbuh) in dung or submerged him in urine. Again, I don't care about these artists or their "work". The point was that nobody dies, nothing got burnt, nobody rioted.

It is great that you have so much confidence in your family. You must be a group of BAMFs which is cool. Even with that said, would you really be comfortable with loved ones in Tahir square?

Make all the judgements you want to about me, that's fine. Say I stereotype for pointing out what is true and asking questions. Everyone stereotypes including you sir. You probably have a picture in your mind about what you think I look like, where I live, how I would sound in a conversation, it's ok, it's natural. Therefore everybody is also prejudice, meaning you pre-judge people. It is undeniable, you will pre-judge someone based on your previous experiences. Oh, and by the way, you stereotyped conservatives, Muslims, and liberals in your post, your prejudices show just as much as mine.

Some liberals (OWS) act an awful lot like the peaceful Muslim rioters, smashing windows, burning buildings, raping people. I am not saying that liberals are like Muslims, that would be an insult to Muslims who are mostly...

MZ, props for that observation. No one died over those artworks. I chalk that up to our educational system and our ability to separate out hyperbole from fact, not religion. Not to change subjects, but I don't think SOME fundamentalist christians/hard right conservatives have the cleanest hands, either, based on the murders of Sikhs, abortion providers or everyone lost in Oklahoma City a few years back. Another point for another day, I guess.

I don't know what a "BAMF" is, but yes, I'd be comfortable with my family in Tahir Square. They're smart and able, like I said, and they would manage.

Of course I stereotype, too, but I work very hard to avoid broad generalizations about groups based on misinformation. I try my best to learn and explore beyond the surface. With regards to you, I don't have any image in my mind, I am arguing solely based on your words, which provide me with a good idea of your point of view on these specific subjects. Beyond that, you could be a collector of pink unicorn dolls who worships Vishnu and rides a Kawasaki, none of that is germaine to this discussion, which is about trying to look at the big picture (my original point).

And, yes, when groups gather to protest, oftentimes violence can be a side effect. That's "mob mentality," and is a well understood phenomenon of human behavior. This doesn't excuse it in Egypt, Lebanon, Wall Street or anti-choice murderers and mosque attackers.

I'm out. This has been fun. Have a good day.

Jim, you seem entirely reasonable. Thanks for the conversation. Best wishes and have a great remainder of the weekend.

How about this? On September 13, while the middle east was burning, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) sent an internal email to its staff under the subject line “Hispanic Heritage Month.” The email, obtained by The Weekly Standard magazine, featured a picture of infamous communist butcher Che Guevara with the slogan “hasta la victoria siempre,” or “on to victory, always.” This is from an american government agency. Makes ya think twice doesn't it?

Oh please, your "source" is well known for his hatred of Obama & Dems. Seriously, did you see or read one single criticism of Romney or the repubs on the website? Of course you didn't.
Give you head a shake you fool, if you're going to search for facts, find a reliable source, not some nutcase weirdo who's in dire need of a stay in the looney bin.

Lord almighty, I bet if the guy told you standing on your head and spinning around 3 times would erase all your debts, you'd believe him.

Well voting for Romney is not the answer, which i hope that is not where you are going with the comment V. Scheurich

OK, Michael, go ahead and believe that. Just keep in mind it wasn't just the "liberal media" criticizing the speech. I heard a lot of Republican pundits embarrassed by it as well.

I guess Clint's slash of the throat gesture when referring to Obama, & Clint asking the invisible Obama, ("what? you want me to tell Romney to **** himself? Well, he can't really do that on his own, can he") is okay with you then. Nice going Michael, you're a real prize.

Neither Mr. Romney nor Mr. Eastwood have the debating skills of Mr. Kennedy or for that matter Mr. Nixon. They are probably aware of their lack of debating skills or they would be using them presenting issues rather than personal defamation.

Michael,

That's an interesting comparison, sound only vs. video. It would appear that the Libs were simply too distracted by the tuft of Clint's hair that was out of place to actually LISTEN to what he said.

Worth repeating:

The government doesn't own us. WE OWN THE GOVERNMENT!

Jay, where to start?

You can't seriously be saying that America is less tolerant than Muslim countries. You can't seriously be comparing the so called war on women with how Muslims treat there women. I never said that all American men treat women with respect, of coarse some don't. I also never said that only Muslim women are treated poorly. But for you to equate how women are treated in America with how they are in most Muslim countries shows who's head is truly in the sand.

Name the Christian riots for me.

A movie made people kill? Think about that for a moment. A movie "made"people kill. Now tell me that's not crazy.

Jay, do you have a wife, girlfriend, daughter. You certainly have/had a mother. Where would you rather take them, virtually any place in the USA, or Egypt, Afganistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine? Would you feel more comfortable with your loved ones in Isreal or Lybia?

Go ahead, answer truthfully.

Jay,

So I suppose you are going to give equal condemnation to Obama's $1M donor, Bill Maher, right?

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/peoples-communities-cube/2012/sep/16/bigoted-anti-islam-filmmakers-name-revealed-bill-m/

Ireland,.Good example of Catholics killing over religion.....Lets just some it up....Religion equals people killing people. Religion has been a divider for humans for 100's of years! whether this video was made or not.....religion will be responsible for the death of humans for 100's of years to come.

V. Scheurich, you're a prime example of why Americans are hated the world over.

V.
I guess Jay thinks Obama can do no wrong. If you point out something that he did that was ill conceived, you are the reason the world hates us? I thought once Obama became president the Middle East would love us. Whoopsie!

V. Go ahead and send Jay an Obama sweat shirt. Perhaps he will forgive you for posting about something that actually happened.

V. did you notice the only Republican for the arrival of the coffins was General Powell; where was Ms. Rice? Many of the employees of the State Dept. were there when she was there. I believe she would have come to that ceremony mourning our national loss but probably felt intimidated by her Republican peers and people like you; what name would you have called her is she was there?

Marie, I read your comment multiple times and can't understand what point you were trying to make. Are you saying Republicans would have ridiculed her for being there? I don't think V. was saying that. My understanding is that V. was commenting that it was Bush League to also have the admin. tweet out a sale on Obama sweatshirts while the coffins were arriving.

I don't think V. was saying that Obama shouldn't have been there as the coffins were arriving. I don't pretend to speak for Republicans but I would imagine that they would have no problems with Ms. Rice being present. I would imagine most would commend her for it, not condem her for it.

Ergo MZ...why was Ms. Rice not there? The ridicule is in the name calling of "rooky' "condescending narcissist" "Hawk sweatshirts" "cheap...sickening Liberals." Do you have no self awareness? By the way...what does "Bush League" mean? Try not to lose focus and not name call so we all know what you are saying.

Marie, I have no idea why Rice wasn't there. I don't know her and have read nothing about it. Have you?

Look up the bush league reference, I am surprised you never heard of it. Perhaps you need to re-read my post, or any other post of mine. At no time did I call anyone names. Thanks for projecting and thanks for the clarification although I still don't understand your original post. I must be slow.

Just putting it into perspective. Clinton's cheating and lying compared to Bush's atrocities that put this country in a tail spin. I predict that if republicans win this election, the will take your money and run us right into the ground, smirking all the while.

Thanks for the compliment, but than sadly you had to call me a fool. I don't recall saying anything about supporting drugs, bank fraud, etc... But than again, I also didn't say I supported the movie or agreed with its content. I did say that any movie, regardless of content isn't an excuse to riot, burn buildings, and kill people. The fact that you think differently says way more about you than it does about me.

I support free speech, even for those with whom I disagree, like those who say it should be limited.

I actually thought your second paragraph was close to sane if you replace America with Egypt.

Making a movie isn't breaking the law. Bashing any religion or religious figure isn't against the law. Taunting isn't against the law.

The SF Giants fan that wore his teams jersey to a Dodgers game and was killed for it certainly deserved it right? He knew it would piss people off. By your reasoning he deserved what he got.

Does anybody agree with Jay?

Thanks Jay. Right back at ya bro!

And somehow current events lead to 1500-1700 discussions. That's about right considering the topic of burning things and killing people over religious beliefs. It's nice that we have come so far!

Thanks for the unneeded history lesson.

Which ones were in the name of religion? What religion? We're they started because of a movie? Nice try!

You make me smile. I never denied riots have happened in the US. Not once. I never denied people have dies in said riots, not once.

Your inflammatory use of Jesus Christ's name makes me want to burn things, start riots and kill people. Should your first amendment right be revoked?

I also enjoy that you get so mad about posts on the Internet from someone you don't know. Again, you make me smile, thanks for the entertainment, and please keep the comments coming. I have a room full of people enjoying this with me while we watch the Browns lose again.

Jay, I am sure you have been keeping up on the news lately. It would appear that Benghazi had nothing to do with a film after all. It looks like they simply hate Americans and want to kill them. They would kill you too if given the chance.

Still want to ban free speech?

Wow, way to show some love out there. How very tolerant of you. Why are you consumed with so much hate for those you have never met?

You are the winner and have accumulated more points than anyone previously has and with such a short post. Good work!

5 points each for politely asking others to commit suicide because you disagree with them on political matters. How American of you. 3 points for saying God is fake and the bible is silly. 2 extra points for your clear and concise statement of hate to top off your brilliant well thought out post. A total of 15 points in only 56 words. That is a new record.

Jay, should P Eastman's first amendment rights be suspended for insulting a religious icon and holy book, or does he have to put it in movie form first?

Wow, Mr. Eastman,
you are just the type of "Logical Progressive" that I am pleased to oppose on every count and your behavior strengthens me. It proves me right.

Joseph, what were Obama's Foreign Policy Achievements prior to 2008? Couldn't it have been said Obama: "NO foreign policy experience in a very DANGEROUS world!"

Just to be fair to the other side, what foreign policy achievements did Obama have prior to becoming president?

Mr. Robert,
Killed OBL? Followed Bush Doctrine.
Ended Iraq War? Followed Bush Doctrine.
Killed more Al Qaeda leaders? Followed Bush Doctrine.
Supported "Arab Spring" uprising so Islamist Terrorists could take over.
Closed Guantanamo? Followed Bush Doctrine.
Spent the USA into the "Grecian Formula Econonmy"? Followed Bush Doctrine.

spam again

I couldn't agree more with that quote. Thanks for sharing.

Joseph-
This for sure will be the nail in Romney's campaign coffin. He's already had a terrible week, and this just piles it on. I actually almost feel a little sorry for our Republican friends on the Patch today....

It is about time America discusses the many "freeloaders" in that 47% of non-payers.
Democrats will lament having to actually defend their base that is in the 47% who do not pay 1 cent of their "FAIR SHARE" in taxes.

Game on ! If Romney actually points out the Truth in what he says, many of those 47% will be revealed.
1)People who "fake" disabilities.
2)People who work on the side, while depleting our unemployment funds.
3)Young woman having children, hiding the real fathers, in order to live better than Working Mothers.
The list is BIG! I am glad that the Truth about 47% comes out.
47% is bigger than 1%.

Let's get back to fixing America.
Our embassies are burning. Egyptian Flags have replaced our American Flag. (Did your local TV show that to you?)
I have a message for All Democratic voters---You are Sickening in how you would watch our USA go up in smoke , just to Win an election.
Diversion of this President's foreign policy is a "sin".
Of course, many of you do not practice what you demand of others.
It's a game of "gotcha". A Game where America loses either way.
All of you in that 47% number know who you are.
You will be the 1st to suffer , if a real exodus starts happening.
What should be left, is the 47% of you who can "sponge" off yourselves.
You will never understand that Mr Obama can support you only by "stealing"
He steals by making loans he can't pay back.
He steals by circumventing Bankruptcy laws to give GM billions of taxpayer money.

My nephew is risking his life in Afghanistan every day. Current federal law exempts him from federal taxation. Mitt Romney just said that my nephew is a deadbeat looking for government handouts. This coming from a coward who refused to fight for his country in Vietnam Nam. This coward who grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth is the epitome of entitlement. You better get off your horse Paul Revere, he's a loser!!!

Um "Paulrevere" how does this 47% of Americans get out of paying sales tax? And gas tax" and SS tax? And State Taxes? And property taxes? Oh never mind you were just spamming old ads.

Tim, I don't think that Romney with the aforementioned quote, or Obama when he speaks of the "rich" were referring to sales tax, gas tax, SS, state taxes or property taxes. I am fairly certain that they were referring to Federal Income Taxes. I am also fairly certain that PaulRevere was as well.

Are you disputing that 47% don't pay any Federal Income taxes? Sales tax and gas tax are a choice. Those that own property pay property taxes, those that rent do not (although I am sure it can be argued that the tax is included in the rent, unless they are on section 8). Do you pay SS tax is you are not making income?

Murphy, I am fairly certain that Mitt wasn't referring to your nephew. Weren't there millions of liberals protesting the Vietnam war, dodging the draft, burning draft cards and the American flag, throwing medals away. I thought liberals hated the Vietnam war and spit on our soldiers.

Murphy & Tim:
Romney never called anyone a deadbeat. He just said 47% of the people do not pay income taxes. "That those people probably are Obama supporters". Listen to his tape.
Now murphy, you call him a loser and coward , not for his country.
Let me ask you, Did you see the 2001 Olympics here in the USA ?
Did you see the whole Republican Natl Convention stage be filled with All the greatest Olympians of all time. Mike Erizioni (Hockey).
Well , if you did not see that , YOU and YOUR NEPHEW Should.
Summary: Our Olympics was in a shambles back then, Bankrupted with corruption.
It was cancelled , and the whole USA was about to be the SHAME to the world.
Do your know who the olympic committe called to SAVE THE GAMES.
MITT ROMNEY. He saved the whole face of America then.
He is as much a hero to this country as anyone who served. Certainly does not earn the trash talk of being called a coward.
See the movie we all saw that night. The movie that Regular TV suppressed, because it displayed the Real Romney.
See how he was praised by True American Heros from all walks of life. He saved the Atheletes lives and Families who busted their rears for 4 years preparation.
Romney saved humiliation to ALL AMERICANS.
NOW THAT IS A PRESIDENT YOU and every one of the readers here should want.

Dan: Since 1913 , Our tax laws allowed deductions. Always changing , of course.
We even had a high 80% tax rates back in 1980. Pre-Reagan.
Tax laws back then allowed hundreds of deductions like all kinds of Interest on charge accounts and all sales taxes paid, any cattle feed costs paid up util Dec31st of each year. NO ONE PAID THE 80% rate. I know.

But, only 20% of Americans did not pay any taxes for the reasons you list.
Today , No taxes are due because of the many Tax credits given that never existed back when.
We did not have anything like College credits. Child care credits, !st time homebuyer credits ($8,000 checks), Credits of $800 for anyone who just had a W-2, Hope andlearning credits for students, Earned income credits for single with children,Credits for IRA contributions. Today's credits are ALL CONSIDERED WELFARE PAYMENT STYLED.
That is why America now has 47% of This country NOT PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE.
Our Tax system has been used to Hide the billions of Welfare payments that by-pass congress. Obama has been doing this big-time right before your eyes. He has been Paying people off the Tax roles by all his hidden cost to society.

That sir, is the Truth. Buy yourself a JK LASSER tax guide and look up CREDITS on income taxes. There you will see the greatest creation of welfare payments costing all of the 53% who do not get these credtis because their income exceeds $100,000.
So don't try to spin a correct statement.

All politicians have so called gaffes if they speak enough. Joe Biden is probably the world champion. Obama has had his fair share as well, the Joe the plumber incident, the bitter clingers, the you didn't build that, etc...

I do agree that Mitt was likely throwing out some Red Meat. In a futile attempt to explain it away, I would suggest that he was trying to draw a distinction between those that work and pay taxes and those that abuse the system. The ones abusing the system would have no reason to vote for Mitt or care at all about the tax rates. I think it is hard to argue that the takers are firmly in the Obama camp. I would also suggest that he probably didn't intend to include either seniors or military in his comments but he said what he said. I agree entirely with his point.

Murphy-
Your last post is exactly what I have been saying. Even if MZ and others loved what Romney said during the fundraiser, where will it get them in the election? If I was a Republican, I would be trying to figure out how we can expand the party, not shrink it even further. Oops, what am I saying? Let them keep doing what they've been doing!

Murphy & Dan, are you arguing that more people shouldn't pay any federal income taxes? Would the US be better served if the number wasn't 47% and was 60%, or 70%?

I have been told numerous times that I should not be able to speak about abortions since I am not a woman and therefore can't have any opinion on women’s rights. Is it a fair analogy to extend that to paying federal income taxes? I am sure I will be vilified for this comment but, if you don't pay federal income taxes should you be allowed to have an opinion on how they are spent? If that is not the case, what prevents people from voting in those who will spend more on entitlements? At what point does the system break?

I will agree, as I stated earlier, that Romney was throwing red meat and could have chosen his wording better. You would have to acknowledge that Obama has had many similar problems with word choices.

There is no doubt in my mind that a strong America is good for the world. America is better when hard work and entrepreneurship are appreciated and encouraged. An America where more people have some skin in the game and care more about how our tax dollars are spent is a better America. Less, not more people on entitlements is good for the country. I believe there should be strings attached to receiving most government “assistance.” If you are collecting unemployment, why is it bad to require those same people give back in some way, provide some service, pick up litter, paint over graffiti, do something?

America can be great again, not with low expectations, not with more “services”, but with the high expectations that Americans are expected to stand on their own, to work hard, to struggle, and to persevere.

Murphy, it does seem that we agree on more than we disagree. I find that to be true when speaking with most people. We all want a better life, better America for our children, family, and friends. I also agree that Romney did appear to be cold in his statement. However, much as Obama shouldn't be judged on a single statement or sound bite, neither should Romney, or anyone else.

The fact is everyone has said something that they regret, something that didn't come out quite the way it was intended to. I will judge both Romney and Obama as I judge all politicians on their respective ideas, history, and records. Those who get too wrapped up in sound bites can fall for a great speaker with little to no depth, no ideas of their own, and can be swayed by words and not merit or accomplishments.

These are difficult times in which we live. There are millions who through no fault of their own need assistance to make ends meet. I have no issue with them. I do take issue with the delivery methods of this assistance, with those that game the system, with the entitlement mentality that I see on display. I have no tolerance for those lining up for “Obama money”, for politicians promising pie in the sky visions of a benevolent government, or of additional government programs, especially federal programs.

I give more in time and money than most to those less fortunate who are willing to work to make things better. I refuse to help those who won't help themselves.

Here's some more info on that:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/where-are-the-47-of-americans-who-pay-no-income-taxes/262499/

Jeff-

Great link. Thanks for pointing it out!